Creative mad genius Scott Lobdell talks about his humble beginnings, his creative process, and explains how it has never been easier to break into the comic book industry than it is in 2022!
Creative mad genius Scott Lobdell talks about his humble beginnings, his creative process, and explains how it has never been easier to break into the comic book industry than it is in 2022!
The Best Worst idea is a weekly podcast exploring how our worst ideas often give way to our best ideas. What's your best worst idea? Want to find out? Let's go
Scott Lobdell:You're so ugly you'll give me a modern art masterpiece. You look like a blueberry. Who's gonna take his place? says Jesus.
Frank Hannah:See this? This is my and welcome to the best worst idea podcast. My name is Frank Hannah and I am your host. This is the place where we discuss the creative process, we kick it around, demystify it. Today, my guest is a mad genius. He's a comic book legend who has penned extended runs on several different books and the X Men franchise. He's revitalized Teen Titans, Super Boy and the Superman titles. He garnered a rabid and loyal following with Red Hood and the Outlaws and that's to say nothing of his work in film and TV. He wrote the massive horror comedy smash happy death day. And in 2020, he sold his comic book property ball and chain to Netflix, which is to be turned into a film starring Dwayne The Rock Johnson and Emily Blunt. If anybody knows anything about the creative process, it is my friend, Scott loved Dell. Welcome, Scott.
Scott Lobdell:Well, thank you, Frank, it's always a very odd experience to hear somebody eulogize you while you're still alive. So, thank you for that.
Frank Hannah:Well, somebody has to do it, as well with me. Yeah. So um, as kind of the intro kind of suggests, this is kind of a new podcast. And the idea is that we really want to talk about people's creative process. And it's called The Best Worst idea because creative people I think, that are successful end up not stopping at the first or second idea, good ideas may not come until the 10th or 50th, or 100 or more. And that's the difference, I think, between a lot of a lot of people. So you, I've always known you to be this kind of creative madman in the sense that you you've just got a million ideas running around in your head, and who better to really kind of talk about kind of that process, how you manage that how you filter ideas, and you realize that ideas could be horrible at first, but then lead to something better.
Scott Lobdell:Oh, yeah, one of my favorite things to do as well, you've heard me do it, but I do it with other people, as I'll be like, Oh, my God, I had the worst idea. It's so terrible. And you know, and then sometimes, sometimes the reaction will be like, well, that's not really terrible. That's actually a good idea. And so it's like, okay, you know, so, so I'm not I don't shy away from bad ideas. And because you never know, like you say, you, you might think a 10 ideas. And I don't know, some people, some people obsess on one idea. And I don't, I have never been that I think I have the opposite opposite problem. In fact, at my age, I believe I have come to accept the fact that I will not live long enough to write everything I want to write, right, they still want to write books, I'd like to write, like those Jack Reacher books that are so awesome. I'd love to, like, find a character and write the hell out of it for a few years, but but I also still want to keep writing movies, because I want to create TV, you know, comic books. And so when I was younger, I used to think, Oh, I'm gonna write this one, they're gonna write that one again. But now I realize that no, I can't, I'm not gonna be alive long enough.
Frank Hannah:It's interesting, because I often felt like, there was one thing that you know, you needed to do when you were younger. Like, for me, I really wanted to write and work in film, you know, because it's a very tough industry to be in. You know, you can't always do that. And so you're yearning to do these things. You're waiting for things to get funded. But then you I came to realize over time that, you know, it's not so much one thing, it's this area, and for me, creating things became kind of this wider way to kind of feed that aspect of my, my soul, but also kind of helped me to generate ideas and kind of live more creatively. And I think that that's something that we sometimes feel like if I'm not doing this one type of thing, then that's the end of the story. But I think it's really that it could be a whole number of things that fit into the creative world and and to your point, you look out and you say, God, there's so many things I want to do. And as you get older, there's a limited amount of time. And like how many more scripts do you have in you? How many more books How many how much more time because you just know it takes a lot of attention and focus to kind of mount any of these type of these type of things. So I don't know I, I've always been in awe of the way your brain works and how you are constantly have ideas. I can't fault somebody for coming up with 50 Shitty ideas, if it leads to like the one where I'm like, Oh, my God, Scott, that's an amazing
Scott Lobdell:number 250 to one?
Frank Hannah:Well, no, but that's exactly for myself, I would say it's, you know, there's a, there's a you have to wade through a lot of crap to get to what is good, but I don't look at that as, oh, it's not worth it, I look at it. Like that's just part of the deal. The the part of it is that you're going to come up with parts of what your idea is, that may lead to a kernel of what it's really going to end up being. And then ultimately, it may not even be right away, maybe a year, maybe two years.
Scott Lobdell:I'll give you example, as and I don't know if this is ever I don't think I've ever spoken about before. So this could be fun. Or it could be like, oh, yeah, I know that story. But I know that story. They, the people that had magic APL after happy Ted, they came to me and said, you know, can do some of the magic eight balls, maybe something scary. And I'm like, Yeah, and I looked at it. And I was, you know, I thought well, actually, there's more of, it's more of a liar, liar type thing where some guy gets a magic eight ball. And he's, you know, works for this new company. And they have to bring a gift to their Japanese owners. And so he picks up this magic eight ball, and he goes, he's at this party for the weekend, where they're meeting the bosses. And he realizes that he's stuck with this magic eight ball in his hand. And the only way he can get it off is to do whatever the magic eight ball tells him. So anytime he has to make a choice, he has a magic eight ball, the magic eight ball tells them blah, blah, blah. So I imagine a pie was going to different stores looking for one to have it so I could think about. And then you start thinking about this idea for a movie about a police artist who is really good at like, you know, you describe the person who would you know, the person was self assaulted you. And then the police sketch artist sketches it up. And what happens is one day, he is sketching, and that night, he goes to bed, and he starts to catching a dumpster. And he sketches. A knife. And he's like, that's weird. And then it, you know, he goes back the next day shows a detective, I give him the shirt enough, they go and they find the dumpster and they find the knife. And so like now they know, now they not only have the killer, but they have how he did it, then it starts to take him over where he's at a restaurant. And these two people are talking and he starts sketching. And he inadvertently discovers that these two guys at the next table are like CIA operatives who are working on American soil. And then he gets pulled into the same strictly because he is producing this evidence that he couldn't possibly otherwise know about if he didn't see it as he was drawing it. And so it becomes, you know, one of those like, you know, Marathon Man, like guy caught up in the regular guy caught up in this crazy situation. Large priority. You know what I based it on? No, when I was in the store, the toy store, they had a keychain, have an etch a sketch. And I thought, jeez, someday somebody's going to do, you know, freakin Etch A Sketch movie. And I How would how would that work? I thought, wait a minute. And so
Frank Hannah:and that's how I ideas are born. Right? Yeah. And
Scott Lobdell:it's like, and, you know, you hear that you hear that story? It's like, okay, I could see it, you know, to movie and, you know, introduce it, you know, I mean, not the best movie in the world. But it was like, I just saw a keychain. And I'm like, Okay, if I had to extrapolate from, you know,
Frank Hannah:well, yeah. And I think that that's the thing that always fascinates me about creativity at all, is sometimes you'll have an idea. And for the life, you can't make it work. It's an element, or a device or something, and you just know, it's worthwhile. But you can't make it work. And then five years later, you're in the middle of something and you realize that that is the solution to whatever your story issue is, or story problem is, and, and sometimes it doesn't take that long to be able to utilize it, but it's, it just goes to show you that when you go through that process, it feels like it's, you know, ends up being nothing. But now it's in there and then you get to use that somewhere in the future.
Scott Lobdell:And maybe it's like having a baby maybe like the ideas there and it just takes time to write. Sure. And yeah, you know, one of the things I think you and I do a lot and I do it with other people but in different ways. I'll tell you Exactly. But you know, the good thing is is you and I both appreciate a story. Yeah, and a fun story and closer. But we don't always, you and I don't always make the same choices. And sometimes we're like, Well, what about, but the thing is, is that like, I like the fact that I can come to you and I'll say, Hey, I got this crazy thing to do. I'll be like, What do you think? And you go, Well, I don't think it works because of this. But what you said makes me think of that, like, this is where I thought you were going, right? And then it gives me the ability to go, okay, that's not an avenue that I was exploring. And now it's like, you know, now you either go with it, or you're doing but you can, I mean, just by talking about it, sometimes, especially to people that don't necessarily share your point of view. It's been good. I mean, I think, you know, there have been times where you've told me an idea, and I'll say, what about this? And, you know, that's not at all what I want to do, or you go, Oh, yeah, okay. Oh, this is it. This is a solution. You know, I think we can both do that. And you know,
Frank Hannah:what, and I think something else that I've always remembered from way, way back when I first met you, and we were kind of talking about story, and this was back when I first met you in like 1990, or whatever it was, and, and I remember telling you this story, and it was something to the effect of, I said, All right, Scott, what do you think of this, like a guy is on a roof, and he's got a gun in his hand, and he's gonna shoot himself, and he's all depressed. And then next thing, you know, and I did it in that exact voice, by the way, I said, the next thing, you know, the door of the roof, access opens up and a woman comes screaming, and she's running. She's being chased by a guy with a gun. And then he turns and he's gonna kill himself. And then he takes the gun and he shoots the guy and saves the girl. What do you think of that? And you looked at me and you said, yeah. That's not a story. To scene. It's a scene. It's not a story. And, and I was like, no, no, but it but it's cool, though, right? And you're like, Yeah, it's fine. It's interesting, but it's not a story. And, and at the time, I'm like, Ah, I thought, Well, no, he's just shitting all over my idea. It's like, but no, you're so right. It's like, that's not what makes it. Interesting. That's not what keeps people compelled. Like, that is a scene. And I think that that helped me to kind of say, Okay, well, I need to start looking at the way that I come up with an idea. And sometimes whenever you'll pitch an idea to me, now, I will say, Okay, I think you need this, right. And it might be a thematic element might not even be something that has to do with the plot at all, it might just be like, this character needs to be this. And you might go Hmm, okay, maybe, maybe not. But that's kind of part and parcel of the creative process is really that, you know, I always say, you know, writing is rewriting, right. So that's, so I never look at it. Like when I finish a script that I, I say, Okay, I'm done. I was looking at like, Okay, now, I have to go through the process of, you know, rewriting and refining and doing all that. And, yeah, nobody likes to do it. But that's part of what
Scott Lobdell:you used to get angry at me. When I'd be like, Okay, I'm done. And then maybe I'd ask for notes or something like that. But in Ray, what notes? And, but the thing is that you, you have always been like, you can't just finish a script and give it to a producer and how to do that. But it's done. Like I felt that was done, you know, like, where, where's I think that you? You know, like you say, you rewrite and rewrite and rewrite. And I. I mean, the script I'm working on now is taking me three months longer than it should but I think that has a lot to do with a lot of other things going on in my life. But like I like I'll say this. I'm not someone that agonizes over script. So the fact that I'm like, three months in it, and I haven't finished it is, you know, is not really, you know,
Frank Hannah:no, I know, and I think that's part of the reason why to that, I would be like, Well, what do you mean, you're done? Because you would say, like, on a Thursday afternoon, you'd say, I got this idea for a pilot, what do you think? And I go, that's great. And then Sunday, you're like, Okay, I have this finished pilot. And I'd say, Well, what do you mean, you have a finished, you have a first draft of a pilot, and you're like, No, no, it's not. And
Scott Lobdell:I think sometimes I'd say like, I have the script. And you go, Okay, I'll read it. And then you read it. And I'm like, well, it's already at the producer. So
Frank Hannah:I don't really want your trip, you know,
Scott Lobdell:I mean, I can't change. Yeah, it's like, I can't change. Sometimes people get upset. They're like, Oh, well, you should change this. I said, but I can't go back to the producers and go, Hey, I've decided to reintroduce this character, like, you know, like, once once the studio has, or producers have it, then you're kind of stuck.
Frank Hannah:It's a weird thing. I think it's one of those things that if you do any kind of creative job, as a writer, or really anything really where you're you really need creative and constructive. criticism or you need to put yourself out there, and you need to have somebody look at it. And, you know, so many times, you know, people always say, right, which you know, so then things that you write are really personal. And then somebody says, Well, that would never happen. And then someone goes, well, that really happened to me. And it's like, yeah, I know. But, you know, it has to feel a certain way. And, and so we go through this, this, this process of, of not wanting to have somebody look at the stuff we have, because it's like a, it's like a psychic wound to us whenever they say it doesn't work. And and I think that over time, you just, you become kind of immune to the knee jerk responses you get from people. And what I was going to say is that, you know, I think what I sometimes hear you do, and I do this as well sometimes is, I might not be totally 100% on an on a part of an idea, or a part of a script or a story. But I will defend it because I want to see if somebody can prove me wrong, not as a power play, but just to see, like, let me test it. Like if somebody can give me a better version of this or something that works better. I'm that creative Darwinist guy, I don't really have an ego about if somebody has a better idea. I might be mad that they have a better idea than me, because I'm like, dammit, why didn't I think of that? But, but anyway, so? Yeah.
Scott Lobdell:Well, you know, I, it's interesting when you say, right, what, you know, like, I don't know, I mean, you've seen a lot of my writing. And I think you know, me like, I don't know, do I I don't feel I put myself in my work to you or do.
Frank Hannah:Yes, I do. But probably not in a way that you think I think one of the things just maybe go back a little bit. To when you started you. I was kind of I don't know if I've ever told you this, but I always felt like you had like the classic comic book supervillain origin story that I did. You did? Yeah. And and correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember you telling me that, you know, you spent, you had asthma or you had a, you had a illness when you were young and asthma really, really bad. Right. And it kept you indoors when other kids were out playing and doing things. And so, you know, this always felt like the kind of the supervillain kind of, you know, plotting and then, you know, creating kind of take over the world. Yeah. And so that's the way I kind of, I always looked at it, and not that you ultimately use your powers for evil. But I was always curious to see like, what you felt that did to the, you know, the creative process. I know, for myself, you know, what my childhood say? being troubled or whatever, there was always a part of me that was fantasizing about a different version of the world. And so to me, that kind of made more sense. Okay, well, I was just trying to rewrite my, my life somehow, in a way or solve problems that I was having through stories. But for you, I wonder, as you were sitting there, on in the room, or wherever, wherever you were seeing other kids play, like how did that affect your view, your worldview at all? Really?
Scott Lobdell:Well, I think in a way, I kind of felt like that, you know, in a metaphorical way. I had six brothers and sisters, and they would play in the backyard, they play kickball, or football or, you know, baseball or whatever, freeze tagged at it. So I was never able to play the games. But I could watch the games. I've like watched them. And I watched everybody once you know, usually if you're doing Freeze Tag, you're like running away from the person or like, if you're the person who's like swinging the bat, your goal is to swing the bat and the pitchers goal is to try to make sure that you don't get to hit the ball. So but when you're up, you know, in the third floor, in the attic, looking down, you see everything. And so I think that, you know, one could maybe make the argument that, you know, I learned to look at everything instead of experiencing what maybe it is that I was looking at. So you know, Jim Shooter always writes about the person with these incredible powers that lose themselves completely in their powers. And it's the struggle to come back to humanity like, you know, beyonders a perfect example. Chris Claremont was always swapping genders. You have, you know, genders ages that it's like this as if nobody could be comfortable in their own body in their own identity. Fabian, nice, nice Isa. It was always about the Father killing the son and their son killing the father was always but oddly enough, I think that most of the comic books that I write are all focused on these damaged individuals who their damage is what is essentially the superpower that they use to win. Right? And if that doesn't sound like me from 30,000 feet, you know, like, no, it
Frank Hannah:kind of does, because I, you know, another way of saying that, is that said this to me a million times, I mean, it's really writing from character, right? So anytime that a character makes a decision for you that it's really based on all of these things, right? That's the I think the the key kernel of it. I've always also kind of seen you as somebody, I think one of your trademarks. I think if we can call it that is you have this kind of, it's not schmaltzy, but it's like you have this good old fashioned all American kind of ideal about what a superhero should be. Because I know, you know, in the past, the comic book industry became really, really cynical. And and I always remember you kind of bristling against that you're always like, No, I, you know, I don't like necessarily the idea of superheroes that are anti heroes per se, or that they have a cynical view of crime or villainy or the world. You like the purity have someone like Superman or, or the Titans or X Men where, you know, they have this, this ultimate goal that they're fighting for. And that is the thing that is the most important, and their own damage gets in the way of that. But I think that was always something that I felt was a really strong, like, if you came up with an idea, my version would be the dark, kind of, you know, edgy indie version that no one would ever, ever do. And yours was always the more like, no, no, no, it's, this is the this is the heroic story. This is the way you go. I don't know, do you feel like that you still feel that way? Or do you feel like I'm,
Scott Lobdell:like, even like, when you look at a book like Red Hood? When I was at Marvel, and it was at the height of my abilities, they came and said, Do you want to do Electra? Like, do I want to write about an assassin? No, like, and there's like, do you want to write you know, Punisher, Mike now is the kind of killing people because he felt bad. But then when I was at DC, and they said, Do you want to write Red Hood? I said, Yeah, if I can redeem him, like, that's my, that's what I find interesting. Like, to me his conflict was about all the horrible things he had done, it was about how he would come to feel bad about the things that he had done, and then work towards being a better person. So I would never, you know, I mean, the Red Hood that was around before I got there was just angry red hood, who was killing people and blaming Batman and rubbing Batman's face in the past, he was a murderer. And to me, like, none of that was interesting. What is interesting was a guy who was had gone through hell. And now he decided he was going to try to come back from Yeah, and I think
Frank Hannah:I think the fans have the book that really resonated with them, because I know you've had fan a fan base for the different books you've written, but I, I do seem to recall, it's like, it seemed like the Red Hood fans you had were pretty intense.
Scott Lobdell:You know, I think that's true. But I also always wonder like, how much anytime you have a book, I guess, unless it's a crater on book, you wonder how much of that is like, you know, if they got a Kevin from the office to write the Red Hood, if people there'd still be like this legion of Red Hood fans who love I mean, I don't know, it's interesting, too.
Frank Hannah:I mean, as a comic book fan, I know, the really super nerdy part of me that would be reading a book, and then the writer would maybe get behind because or the artist was behind whatever it was, and then all of a sudden, a different writers taking over to episode two issues. And I'd be pissed off, because I wanted the guy writing it. Yeah,
Scott Lobdell:you know, yeah. See, I always enjoyed, I always enjoyed, you know, I, you know, it's funny when you're on a book, like I was, I'd written that X Men for I know, nearly seven years or something. And before me, Chris had written for 16. And Peter, David had written Hulk for 18, or whatever. And I always said, and you probably remember using at the time, like, I didn't want to be that guy that you wheel away from the typewriter, right? Remember, typewriter that you were away from the typewriter, like, I didn't want to come to the end of the stories I could write and have to, you know, I've told them all and yet, I still want to stick because this is my book. Like I didn't want to ever be in that position. Yeah. And so and when you're in the middle of it, you're like, I don't I don't want somebody to come in and tell two wishes on my story. But when you're the guy who has to go and until two issues and somebody's story, and it's kind of fun. Well, yeah, also like to me like writing it was always very, I mean, reading it, like, I remember, I don't know if you remember this. There's a time in the 70s where the The issue wasn't done. And it would end with, you know, Captain America about to leap into battle against Dr. Doom. And then the next issue would come out and you'd see cap like leaping in to battle against Dr. Doom. And then it was like, the first time cat battle Dr. Doom and that was a, you know, book from the 60s, it was just the whole issue. And then at the end, it's like, Okay, now we're gonna fight. And it's like, you know, so they just did these reprints, because they couldn't get the books to ship on time. And to me, like, I was thrilled by that now. I mean, it tried to do that nowadays and people, you know, Yeah, crazy. But I
Frank Hannah:wonder, you maybe just be diplomatic about this. Given that you have such a kind of long love affair with comic books and comic book industry and all that, but what do you how do you see the state of the comic book industry now currently as it is?
Scott Lobdell:Well, I mean, it's a it's a bunch of different questions, because I'll tell you that I'm probably one of the few people that think that comic books can make a comeback to what they were in the 90s. Okay, everybody thinks like, well, you know, no, the books will never sell like that, and dah, dah, dah. But I also think that there was so much going on in the 90s. And we were all like, in fierce competition with each other. And you know, if Age of Apocalypse had and Savior die, then dammit, Superman is going to die. And if Superman is going to die, then Batman is gonna have his back broken a Batman as it back broken, thin Green Lantern is going to become a intergalactic mass murderer, you know, like the right, there's just this competition that within the company, you had it. I mean, that's why, you know, a true Apocalypse beget the Spider Man Clone Saga, you know, it's like everybody wanted to kick everybody else's asked. And now it's not like that, like, you know, you just look in, it's like, Jeff, John says his five, Scott Snyder has his five dumb Brian Bendis, SS five dumb and, you know, if none of them have known that characters meet, that's totally fine with all of them. Whereas like, with us, it was, you know, we're gonna, you know,
Frank Hannah:Oh, yeah. And, I guess in a way that kind of feeds into the, and the crossover, the crossovers, that, you know, events that used to be, you know, once a year or once every couple years or something, and then became like, once a quarter or just ongoing and I always hated those myself, because I felt like you're interrupting my book, the book I'm reading, I don't want to be involved in all your other nonsense. In this crossover event, I want to just read what Green Arrow was doing, you know, for the next X amount of issues. But the truth is, I'm in the minority there. I mean, people love, love, love these big crossover events. And the problem with those is that you're having to kind of outdo and outdo and outdo, and reboot, and reboot and reboot. And I think that's where I've, I think, where I have the hardest time with the mainstream kind of Marvel DC Comics these days is, is that I, I don't know what it is that's happening, I don't get a sense of, I don't get this feeling that I can just jump in, and and start reading because I feel like they've changed so much, and it keeps getting changed. And then when you were starting out, I mean,
Scott Lobdell:I'd taken over Alpha Flight in a bake sale, which you know, as you know, is when they say, oh, we need a writer for Alpha Flight, and instead of saying, Hey, Scott, do you want to read it, they go, they let everybody know. And then they have like six pitches. And one of those pitches was by a guy named Rob tocar, and spam Larson. And at the time, Alpha Phi had 16 characters, which I thought was too much. And so they wanted the 16 characters, and maybe even a few more. And when I took over, I said, I think there should be five characters, I want to, you know, there's 22 pages in the book, five characters, that's what two pages, four pages each, like, I want to use that time to really delve in the characters. And then I did three issues. And then we need an inventory story. So we use the Norstar story. And then Bobby Chase, who was my editor, was assigned to take her success from spirit of engines with Ghost Rider, and to do this whole spirit of engine science. So suddenly, she had eight books that she had to take care of. And my book was given to rob tocar, who was the editor. So Rob tocar, was like, as soon as he got in the editor to ask, he's like, I think we should use all 16 characters. And I was like, I don't want to use 16 cards. I want to use five care. I want to use the pitch that I gave. And so but I was also starting out so I was trying to please Him. When you're pitching stories for somebody that has other stories in their head already. It's almost you know, simple Awesome, yeah simpler. With a producer, you do it all the time. You're like, hey, what about this, and they have this idea. So in that time, I started writing the X Men every, I was writing an issue every two weeks between uncanny and X Men, just as it fell in. And then I was at the office dropping off my latest issue the X Men, and Rob brings me into his office. And he says, This isn't working out, I have to let you go. And then he got a writer who wanted to do exactly what he wanted to do. So it was great. But people always said to me at the time was like, did you get fired? I go, Well, if I got fired, but I got the X Men as a result of being fired, then it was the best punishment. Anybody could ask for.
Frank Hannah:Early on starting out, when you started working for Marvel, it was eight page stories, right? It was, you know, you were having to try and find a way to tell interesting stories with characters that really no one was paying attention to. Because if you did something with like a major character, guaranteed, someone would say, No, no,
Scott Lobdell:no, yeah, editors would be like, No, you can't have Daredevil to see again, for eight pages. So, but they didn't care about Shamrock. They didn't care about Lockitron. They didn't care about you know, a Lagoa or a gala. Sorry. And so those were the characters that I took, because it made it easier for the editor, because the editor didn't have to go around and get a sign off from daredevils editor, and you'd have to go get a sign off of Wolverines editor. So I just gave him the ability to, in fact, in the pitch, I said, I want to do the global village series, and he's like, what's that? I said, all the characters from Contest of Champions. So
Frank Hannah:So kinda like the animal Olympics of, of Marvel, is that it was at I don't know whether you don't know what an animal Olympics is where all of the Hanna Barbera cartoon?
Scott Lobdell:Yeah, yeah, it's like that. That's what the Contest of Champions was. But, you know, it's funny, because like, I remember when I forget who it was, I shouldn't say remember, it's I forget who it was. But like, they, you know, like, we've seen TV ratings go from like, you know, 60 million people who watched the ending of mash to, you know, oh, look, 5 million people watched willing grace. Reunion, and it's a hit, we're bringing it back to the series, because 4 million people, you know, where's at the time, 4 million people is like, you know, Captain Kangaroo on a Saturday morning or something.
Frank Hannah:And that was and that just to interject that that's kind of what happened in the comic book world, too. Yes. But
Scott Lobdell:it was easy for people to, I don't wanna say bifurcate say that the radio, somebody went on the air and said, We're never going to see shows with 17 million people watching it again, that that day is gone. We're you know, we're targeting audiences, we're narrow, narrow casting instead of broadcasting. But then squid games comes around, or, you know, Game of Thrones comes around or so. And then suddenly, you know, the audience that is supposedly everywhere else, but watching TV will show up because they want to see something exciting. And I think the problem with comic books is that those examples I was given before, and I don't know if they're exactly the best examples, but age of authors was what happens when one man was never born. And this man happened to be like the Martin Luther King of comic books, how many other lives were affected? You know, Superman dies, Batman had his back broken Green Lantern, you know, all these things. But they were all character centric, they came strictly 100% from the character. And then, over the time, in this effort to feed this beast of crossovers, it just became like, Oh, we're gonna do a civil war. But with superheroes, or no more mutants, Scarlet Witch is going to become a mass murderer. It's like, wait, what you know, like, like, we're not, we're not impact to remember in the first few pages of no more mutants. scroller which is going crazy. And Professor X gathers the rest of the other superheroes. And he's like, we have to kill her because that's the only way and I'm thinking, okay, Professor X is the last guy that would ever kill her. And he would use every R, every trick in his arsenal, every mutant to stand by this person, like that's it. So. So the thing is, is that what writers started to do was, I want to tell a story, what characters can I use to behave in this way to tell that story? And to me, that's where we lost our way in comic books has now it's even like, Oh, we're gonna do a reboot or something. So we're going to change this major thing. And we're gonna have a bunch of people being presented as other people. And when you do that, you're just saying that okay, the characters, which is what you signed on for the last 20 years of their year or whatever, suddenly those characters aren't those characters anymore. They're new characters with old characters. names, you know, and secret identities and they look the same. Maybe they change your costume. But, you know, we're moving away from characters and moving towards stories that we plug characters into. And I think that's where we've gone wrong. And I think that, you know, it's like Harry Potter, like, you know, if you told somebody 15 years ago that the number one book in the world was going to be about a bunch of teenage magicians that kids were going to read, and oh, each book was going to be 550 pages long people would be like, Get out of here. No, kids don't read. Yeah, or you can. And so. So I do think that if we could get back to the point of like, telling stories about characters, because really, if you look at the Marvel, Marvel movies, I don't know movies, you'd watch movies sometimes since like, you only need two or three good scenes about the characters. And then people go, Oh, that was a great movie. You know? What about this? That didn't make any sense? Yeah, but I really like that guy. So cool. You know. And so I think that that's what is driving audiences to movies. But I also think that you know, like Harry Potter, like, I do think that there's a way to rejuvenate the comic book business, but I don't necessarily think anyone will do it. So yeah, no, I so I get to be right. And no one can prove me wrong at the same time. So, you know,
Frank Hannah:as somebody who loves the kind of art form and the medium of visual, you know, sequential art and graphic novels and comic books and the characters and you know, I am not immune to that either. I remember liking the book, the question, I was a big Vic sage fan. I particularly liked any O'Neal's book of the question. And then somewhere along the line, of course, the book was cancelled at some point or finished its run and then didn't hear much about the character at all. And the next thing, you know, it's the characters being rebooted now to a woman. And I had no problem with a woman character being the question, it was more like, no, no, I, I like the sage. I want to say that, you know, so it wasn't so much a, you know, my response to it, my kind of knee jerk response was more that, hey, you know, I like this character. I don't want this character to be a different person. There is this, this nostalgia we have. So when somebody screws with that you're getting, you're thinking, I don't know, if I, if that's what I, I don't know if I like that. But that's, you know,
Scott Lobdell:getting, you know, it's interesting is that when you like, in the old days, when we're writing, reading whole books, you know, you know, Frank Miller came by and just did Batman Year One, you know, he didn't take everything Batman and throw it out. He didn't change it to, you know, Wayne, Bruce Herman or something, he just took the character and, you know, and same thing with, you know, him and Dave, message le on Daredevil, you know, it's like, you just read it, and also in your back, and you're telling the story, I'm it's like, you know, they were just, it was like, how can you write the best story? You can write with these characters? You know, and, you know, and it's like, they didn't have to cancel everything and start a year. Well, I mean, like, you want to see Batman Year One, even though it was, you know, I believe it wasn't. I'm pretty sure it was not its own series.
Frank Hannah:In May, I don't think it was, I think it was, was all, you know,
Scott Lobdell:JM DeMatteis when he did the hunt for graven. I mean, you couldn't, you could not, could not seek that out and find out what's happening week to week. But somewhere along the line, like, you know, man, marketing area and lost any faith in stories, being able to attract, like, in a way, like marketing should be about Oh, my God, this is great. Sorry, let's go out and tell everybody. Yeah, instead of like, Hey, everybody, come in here. Look, we're going to tell you a story.
Frank Hannah:Yeah. Look at this cool thing we're going to do this month. And yeah, and I think that's, I think that's true. Because, you know, something I remember you saying to me years ago, working on a book, maybe you're working on a couple of two, three books, and you have an editor that wants that has a different vision, or is hung up on something and then wants this little thing changed, which then means you having to rewrite the script, and then the artist have to make any changes. And you, you always have this view of it, that we'll just we'll, we'll do that next month, like we can just do we just keep going because we shouldn't stop the boat. Because of one little tiny thing, let's just continue to trust that the story is going to evolve and it's going to work itself out as opposed to everything being about this one moment in time. And and I think that says something about the, the way that whole corporate structure, you know, looks at things it's really not about story. It's really not about anything other than you know, just market share and and even though it's a small sliver of the bigger, the bigger entity that owns a lot of these things owned by big Which corporations, it does seem like you just would want them to let these things breathe, and they don't. And I think that's where I would see people who would write a bunch of books for Marvel or DC and their, their kind of brand in a way it's getting watered down because they're being pulled in too many directions. And then they put a book out, like an indie book on image or, or something. And you're like, wow, because they're now on chained in a way, and able to do things that are interesting, and don't have to kind of conform to this concern about like, oh, no, we can't do that. Or, oh, no, this isn't gonna be a good thing, or I don't know, I think we're getting a little bit away from the
Scott Lobdell:crowd. I do think that people seed, you know, I think corporations see things like, you know, when we were younger, you had Saturday morning TV shows that was like, you know, and then when, when they would launch a season, they'd have a special on Friday, and they'd show you know, like HR Puffin stuff. You know, talking about Fred Flintstone, you're like, oh my god, this is amazing. It's like, like, what I can't wait for him. And then you know, and all three networks at the same time, so it was like this huge, you know, see have like new content every whatever season was in blah, blah. But then Nickelodeon start doing cartoons 24/7 And then the network's really, we're not, we're not in that business anymore. Like, they do that. So well. Why should we be doing it? Yeah. Like the independent films is of like, I love Inherit the Wind. And I love the verdict by and To Kill a Mockingbird. Like, I love courtroom dramas. But, you know, once Matlock has done, you know, 500 episodes of garbage drama, or, you know, la law, like try to find a courtroom drama movie. Now, it's like, right, why would you try to squeeze everyone drama into two hours, you know, but you know, what's funny, too, is like, when I was did stand up, people would always come up to me after the show, and they go, you know, you want to be you want something to be funny. You come to my place, you put a camera in my where I work, and oh my god, the people there. They're so crazy. And I would often think like who fuck wants to watch you and your friends at work? Like who the hell would ever do that? But now try to find a profession that doesn't have or didn't have at least a stab at a reality show. Right? Oh, the tattoo parlor the you know, you know, I mean, what could be more boring than making dinner at night, but now suddenly, you know, there's like, 10s Chef shows and they're all fighting with each other. And you know, Oh, yeah. You know, go to the gong show. might have had some talent every once in a while. But like now, the X Factor and America's Got Talent like everything else. Suddenly there's He's huge.
Frank Hannah:Now it's America's Got Talent extreme now you can
Scott Lobdell:add audiences to that would be something
Frank Hannah:Well, yeah, I, I find it. It's exhausting. And I think that, you know, what becomes entertainment for people evolves. I mean, even the younger generation, they can sit and watch the streamers on Twitch, just play video games. And this is entertainment for them. And they and when I asked, I said, Well, you know, I'm from that generation where watching somebody else play a video game reminds me of like being in the laundromat waiting for the guy to get off the Pac Man Machine because I'm like, I want to play. It's my turn. Yeah, my quarters are up. Yeah, let's, let's, let's get going so I can play. So the idea of watching somebody else play is just I don't I don't understand it. Yeah, but this is entertainment. And when you ask they, they say, oh, no, it's like watching football. Oh, okay. Well, you know, they look at it as a sporting event because there's eSports and what have you, but I just don't you know, and it's this is they're not alone. This millions of people they love that and to me, I can't get my head around it. But But then again, I go down the YouTube rabbit holes, just like anyone else does. In fact, there was a while there I was I was getting obsessed with watching cleaning videos where people would like clean a dirty car or a really and and there's something or a dirty carpets when you see somebody just going through the process of just cleaning, filthy dirty carpet with like the shampoo and
Scott Lobdell:and it's so much easier with a box of Kleenex next. No, but
Frank Hannah:they're strangely soothing and satisfying which, who would have thought that if you would have told me that 10 years ago, you know what you're going to like Frank, you can like to sit and watch carpet cleaning videos on YouTube. I'll be like, forget you. I'm not doing that. But even now there's there's a A YouTube channel I watch that I'm telling everybody about. It's called the drain on blockers. And it's a show or it's a it's a YouTube channel. It's based in Liverpool. And it's just these guys that are kind of like the equivalent of a roto rooter man in the America. But in Britain they have their drain systems are different. And so they use high powered water jets to clear sewage blockage that comes from and we have a manhole here and it's in the middle of your street and it's a big manhole cover and then you climb down into the sewer. There, their manholes are smaller and they're on your property. And they pull the the lids off of those, and it's just a horror show. You know what's going on. And yet these guys go there. Do it. Clean it. And they whistle while they're doing it. Like they're the most pleasant guys ever. It's the most disgusting job. You're so happy. You can't smell it. But I can't get enough of that. I just love it. So satisfying. Pimple Popper? Yeah, it's kind of like that. Anyways,
Scott Lobdell:Bert from Mary Poppins.
Frank Hannah:Yeah, yeah, well, it's it's much dirtier than a chimney sweep. So I'll tell you. But so let me ask you this. You know, one of the things that I've always been in awe of you is your ability to not have an ego appoint. Now that to me, is not having an ego about helping people. You know, where sometimes you, you think, Well, I don't want to help this person, because I feel like somehow, maybe they'll become more successful than me. Or maybe they'll, they'll take jobs away from me or, and you've just never ever had that. And you've never even if it's somebody that is, has no, no in in the comic, industry, or film or what have you. You've always been that guy that said, Hey, let me help you out. And without any sense of ego about it. And it's such a rare thing. I mean, I don't know if you understand how rare that really is, do you have the quality? Do I I'm not the same as you. I definitely find myself helping people mentoring people as much as I can. But there is a part of me that feels like, wait, wait, wait, I need to save something for myself, you know, in terms of opportunities, and what have you. So there is some of that insecurity, but you just never had that. I mean, I can tell you, I worked at a comic bookstore, you came for a signing, I told you, I wanted to be a writer, I was like 19 or 20. You contacted me a few days later and asked me if I had ideas. You know, she come up with any ideas. And I was like, what? This guy actually picked up the phone and, you know, did what he said he was going to do? And from there. You know, I think you had to have seen something from somebody, you know where for me that they told you that I was serious about wanting to do something in the creative field writing to the point where when I tell people, I say, Well, Scott Lobdell invited me to New York to visit him, and then walked me into the Marvel offices, and walked down, like all of the editors, doors, office doors, and said, Hey, this is Frank, Hannah, you should meet him. Who does that? I don't know, you, and you've probably done it for other people. And that's the point is like, I don't feel like I'm special. I feel like you do this. And everybody's special? Well, anyway, I've always remembered that. And although it never launched my comic book career, point is you weren't saying, hire this guy and pay him ridiculous amounts of money to do a job he doesn't know how to do. You were saying, here is this guy, meet him and talk to him. And really, it's yours to fuck up at that point. Like if you, you can bring it to the party, but like you have to, you have to show something else. And
Scott Lobdell:I've always said to people I can do is open the door. What happens when you're in the door is, you know, is what you can do. Or, you know, I'll say this is that when I I used to get a ride to Poughkeepsie and I would stay at my brother in law's house, his apartment, and I would go through his cushions for change. And if I got like sick, who's a plumber, so he's had lots of change. So if I had $6 and meant that when I went down to Marvel on the train, I wouldn't have enough money to take the subway and eat. So if I could, if I had like that little change, then I could like walk all the way to Marvel and buy a chocolate milk and buy something else and make my way back. So I mean, I was always appreciative of the process, always aware of the process that I was going through. And so I think and and and exist I mean it still exists to this day. It's been over Oh almost 40 years later, but I can tell that people I always remember, I can remember to this day, what it feels like to be on the couch, looking for change, right. And, and so I just always felt that, like, you know, I had people helped me over the years, I just always feel that I should help.
Frank Hannah:I think you have I mean, I've noticed you, when you think about the careers you've probably launched of people that have, that you found and championed. That's no small list of people. And also, I will say, like I, you know, I think you also have a sense of where you came from, and also the people that came before you. Because I remember one time I we were down in San Diego, or maybe I don't know where, where it was, but it was during a big convention. And there was a comic book legend. And I almost don't want to say his name just because let's just assume he's a comic book legend. And you had said to me, Frank, I'm going to give you some money, and I want you to go buy this book. And I want you to tell so and so exactly how much his work means to you. And I'm like, Why? Because I'm thinking he's a legend. What does he need? But no, he, he's a legend that people have forgotten or really haven't, aren't giving him the due he probably deserves. And so you were there. And you did that? It's like a kindness. And it's not like phony because it's what that guy did and achieved in his life isn't isn't some small thing, you know, it. He, I just always kind of thought that was like, kind of the sweetest thing. But I also kind of felt like, that's the kind of guy Scott is God is the guy that's like, yeah, you know, what that guy really deserves, deserves some attention. And for and you never said and tell him? It was me? Or, you know, it was always done that
Scott Lobdell:people come back to me, they go, okay. I didn't know what I don't know, keep your book assigned to you. Like you should have a book on your shelf.
Frank Hannah:With this guy. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. So, so having said all that, like one of the things, like if, if you had advice like this assume in the comic book world, because that, you know, even though that's all changed now, but if somebody wants to be I know, when it comes to art, people always know that, you know, you, you have to do a certain amount of pages of sequential art. And then you have to go and have somebody kind of, you know, go over that and, and have somebody review your work and give you, you know, their two cents about composition and all that. But as a writer, and somebody wants to write comic books, what's your advice to those people? Now?
Scott Lobdell:I don't know, honest to God, like, I think it's like, 90,000% easier to break into comics than it ever was. Right? You know, there's a time when I was writing the X Men like where, you know, you knew everybody who was in comic books. You know, I knew John Byrne, I knew, you know, Walt Simon Sanu. Fabian, I knew Peter David, you know, you knew, even if you didn't know them, as friends who knew them, but now it's like, you know, every day you open up X Men booking like, Who is this guy? Yeah, it was a FedEx guy who came to the drop off at FedEx, and like, Hey, you should write you there. But like, if you right here on this wall, out of these four, comic books, three of them are all done by artists that I met, you know, on the internet, or through Instagram, or, you know, whatever. And so, you know, it used to be the only way you could be seen was if you got a job at Marvel or DC. And the only way to get a job at Marvel and DC was if you had already worked at Marvel, or DC, and so right, very hard. Whereas now, I mean, like, if you, you know, I'll tell you, if I was trying to break in today, I would not wait around for Marvel or DC. And I also kind of thing, I mean, I don't know what the money is, like, now. But there was a time that it could change your life. I kind of feel now that like, you know, what, if I created my own stuff, and that got me the attention of Marvel and DC, I'd be like, Wow, I'm doing fine on Marvel. You know, it's almost like where do you know,
Frank Hannah:because I think the conventional wisdom, say 1015 years ago, was okay, I'm going to work for Marvel DC create a name for myself, I'm one of their books, and then I'm going to go off and do what I want to do independently and reap those benefits because then I can own a property then maybe Hollywood will come calling and they will, you know, they'll buy an idea from me or want to make a movie out of one of my books. But now, you know, it's almost the opposite can be true. I think I've always wished I was more of an artist because you know, the art is always the hardest thing because a writer can write a script quickly. But you can't rush the art the art just takes however long it takes
Scott Lobdell:and and yet nowadays We're at a place where, you know, like, you know, I see the cover of a comic book, a mainstream comic book. And I'm like, it looks like art samples from, you know, when I was breaking? Like, I mean, like you, you know that I can sketch right, and then I can even draw. But, I mean, if I were starting now, I would probably, I think I could draw a comic book, I could be a writer, artist, you know, like, so it's weird, but I think I was just
Frank Hannah:really trying to get a sense of, of, you've got this creative process for you. And, and we've kind of kind of discussed that it kind of comes from character, everything comes from character, I think that's your, your worldview is really that. It's an optimistic worldview. It's not, it's not a cynical one, it's that you kind of see that the world can be this better place, or that, you know, people can be better. And I think that's something that informs the way you come up with your ideas. But in terms of the creativity of it all. Like, if somebody has an idea, like what's if somebody comes up with an idea, like, what do you? What's your advice to them?
Scott Lobdell:Well, you know, there's that old saying, I learned early on that writers write, you know, like you, you know, when somebody tells me, I'm a writer, and I have this idea, and it's like, okay, well, then you have an idea that's different from being a writer, a writer, writes the idea, a writer will write their chapters, so they'll write a plot, and if they don't know how to write a combo plot, though, look it up or though, you know, find some way to accomplish convention and like to see a copy or though, you know, pick up a autobiography from a comic book writer and look at samples of that, or, you know, like, I mean, it's not hard to get, it's not hard to get an Allen, I'm probably not hard to get as hell Adele, plot or script if you looked right, hard enough. So I think it's, you know, it's a matter of doing it, and then often you won't get paid at first, but then you start to, well, it
Frank Hannah:does seem it does seem like, you know, we are in a information age where, you know, finding a plot in 1975 are possible, right? But now, yeah, you can you can find any of these things. So really, it's, it's almost like you're saying, forget about the creative process so much. It's like, do you have the wherewithal to go and use what's available to you out there?
Scott Lobdell:Well, you know, it's funny, you said, because I, you know, like, sometimes I'll work with an artist and the artist will be late and late and late, and then they go, Well, it's because I'm a perfectionist. I'm a perfectionist. It's very, it's really hard to be an artist when you're a perfectionist. And I was like, well, perfection, being part of being perfect is meeting your deadline. Yeah. Perfect and not. Right, meet, you're done. And so similarly, I think that, you know, like, the idea that creativity, and professionalism or wherewithal, I think you just said, the idea that creativity and wherewithal are separate things is not the case. I don't think you know, and I think that people make the mistake, that it is, okay.
Frank Hannah:Well, that's okay. So just to interject, there is my hypothesis here. And I think you're saying kind of the same thing. Creativity is problem solving. That's all it is. And so when somebody tells me that they're not creative, my first response to them as well, do you know how to solve a problem? And they'll say, Yes. And I said, you solve problems in your job? Yes, I'm like, well, then that's creative. And they don't necessarily see it that way. Because they look at it, like no creative is fun and creative is this. But the fact of the matter is, no matter what you're doing, you have to find a way to solve the problem. And so the idea of being creative and being and having the wherewithal and the tremendous drive it takes, it's maybe all, like you say, interconnected, which I don't know if I ever kind of looked at it that way. But it's interesting, it's all part of the same set the same thing, like if you want it bad enough, you're going to do it. Because there's nothing worse to me. And I know people in my life right now currently, that have, they have like this, they pitch an idea to me. And they say, I have this idea for a movie, and you hear it, and you're like, that is amazing. Not only is it you know, commercial, but it's of the moment, it's all of the things that it should be. And you do not have the feeling that the person will ever actually write this thing. And it's so frustrating because it's their idea. You don't want to take it from them, but you really want them to succeed and do it and you just kind of think it's not going to happen because I mean, how hard is it to come up with an idea that that does hit all those notes like you can try and try and try and they come every once in a while. But to see somebody not have the wherewithal to actually follow through is very frustrating, at least just for me. I don't know
Scott Lobdell:what to say. People will say to me all the time they go, Well, God, you're a writer, that must be so competitive. I said, you know, it's not really as competitive as you think. Cuz if you take 100 people, and they all want to be a writer, out of those 150 of them will never put pen to paper. Maybe another 10 of them have a great idea, but don't know how to write it, they'll write like a 600 page script, you know, is under their bed, and they think, Oh, just going to add more pages, and it'll make sense, you know, or they just don't understand the mechanics of an ACC break. And, you know, or, you know, another 10, well write it and get it done. And it's not good enough, but they won't go to a second draft or whatever. So by the time you get down to it, you're not one in 100, you're one in six, right? You know, or you're, you know, you might even be one in three, because you have a great idea that. So I think the idea is, is that,
Frank Hannah:I think another way of saying that is is is like professional golf, for example, when you think about these guys that play and you see them on the weekend, and you see them playing, they're not the top 20% of golfers. They're like the top one half of 1% of golfers. Okay, so what you're kind of saying is, you know, and I think you said this to me years ago, you're like, Oh, the fact that you just finished a script, like puts you like way up in terms of percentages in terms of people that would never, ever finish a script. And I think which
Scott Lobdell:also goes to your point about, like, why I help people, like if somebody has written a script, and they type fade in, fade out, and it's around 110 pages, then I think that they deserve at least, you know,
Frank Hannah:yeah, are reading and, you know, and then, you know, obviously, the steps you take after that, you know, you're gauging this person's commitment to it.
Scott Lobdell:Yeah, certainly, just having just having written hundreds of pages, doesn't mean
Frank Hannah:no, because I know people who, that continue to write crap. And over and over, and, you know, they're very prolific, but they never get any better, because they never are actually, you think it would just get better as just a matter of course, by doing it over and over and over again, but they don't and, and, like, you wish, you could write as many scripts as they do a year, but they're not good. And so trying to find that balance, where somebody is willing to do that, and also willing to be a little self reflective and say, Okay, I'm not gonna, you know, you have to unhook the critic a little bit to get creative, so that you can kind of see what ideas are out there underneath all of that. But at some point, you have to be willing to look at your work and say, This is shit. And I am going to need to throw out this entire act and have to,
Scott Lobdell:as somebody who has been involved with comic books for years, it's like, you know, you get guys who show you their art, and they're amazing. And sometimes they don't even know how amazing they are. And you tell them how amazing they are. And they think your bones smoke. But then you get other people who you you know, they say, Oh, you look at this. And you're you're, you're like, holy, like, I don't know where to start to comment on it. But like, how can you look at it as the actual person who drew it? Right? And not understand that, like, one eye is four times the size of right, you know, the guy's head or something? Like, how do you know, but I think that happens a lot with writers too. Like, you know, they don't and that's when you can see it, that you can visibly see it. So to write a story that somebody has to, like, actively engage in to read for an hour and a half, two hours of the script. I know it's just
Frank Hannah:well, I've often said not having any self esteem is a certain kind of drive. But having too much self esteem, which sometimes is, you know,
Scott Lobdell:wow, it's still a tribe. It's just a drive. Yeah.
Frank Hannah:But anyway, so listen, you've given me
Scott Lobdell:quite a great amount of time. So let's say too much,
Frank Hannah:too much. I bet I do feel like there's many, many more things we could be talking about.
Scott Lobdell:Let's talk about it again then. Thank you. Scott Lobdell Do you have credits and add on to like that means we get in the beginning? No,