Photographer and artist W.B Fontenot | Best Worst Idea Podcast Episode Two

Frank Hannah: 0:00

The Best Worst idea is a weekly podcast exploring how our worst ideas often give way to our best ideas. What's your best worst idea? Want to find out? Let's go You're so ugly you can be a modern art masterpiece. You look like a blueberry. Who's gonna take his place? See is Jesus. You this? This is my welcome to the best worst idea podcast. My name is Frank Hannah. I'm your host. And today, my guest is another creative mastermind. He's an LA based photographer. He specializes in portraiture, and has been working in the industry for over 15 years. His clients have included Playboy LA Weekly, the Knitting Factory, Interscope Records, and has shot at least one of holly Madison's calendars. His photographic work, has had numerous gallery exhibits throughout the west coast and even published a coffee table book. That is a collection of his work with model and TV celebrity, Sara underworld titled muse, a portrait of Sarah Jean Underwood. Now he's even ventured into novel writing. It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast, WB Fontan up

W.B. Fontenot: 1:30

low. Yeah. And thank you for having me on. It's good seeing again, yeah, no,

Frank Hannah: 1:34

no problem. There's a lot of things I want to talk to you about. And probably things that you forgot, you may have told me over the years, and now I'm going to bring them back up and put them in, as you might know, it's like this podcast is really about exploring creativity. So the guests that I have on there, generally people that aren't just necessarily creative, but also explore creativity in different ways. And because of what they do, they have to adjust and do different things. And that because to me, I think creativity is inherent in everyone. And a lot of times we end up featuring, or only hearing about people who who have some huge creative output or something, right. But the fact is, if you're solving problems in the world, you're creative. I mean, that's the way that's my position is that creativity is just is part of just the problem solving ability that we have, as humans, you know, as a photographer, would you say that your main,

W.B. Fontenot: 2:30

yeah, has been kind of the backbone for my creativity. That was the first thing that I got into. And it's, I definitely have my 10,000 hours, and photography, with photography, it's a little bit different. Because especially now everything's so instantaneous, right? You get feedback immediately. It's not like, you know, I've also ventured into painting. And that's something that you can kind of fudge with and play with over time. So the creative process can kind of mutate with the peace. With photography, you kind of have to go into it, and have already worked out all of all of your crappy ideas previously, to what you're doing that day. You know, I was thinking about this kind of the topic of, you know, the best worst idea or, or, you know, the changing of creativity. And I think, with photography, especially, I'm most of my schooling was it started up in the Pacific Northwest. One of the big things there is, it seems like everybody takes a picture of a girl with a sword. It's just inevitable. And it happens in like, all of relief. Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's rampid. It's

Frank Hannah: 3:41

the kind of thing you would like paint on the side of a conversion band. Yeah.

W.B. Fontenot: 3:45

Yeah. Only probably not as cool. Yeah. So, you know, those are the ideas that I think you, you know, you start with, kind of in your little circle, and then you branch out from there. And you can take something like that, and you can, can make it your own. I mean, photography is very difficult, because, I mean, everybody's a photographer now. And

Frank Hannah: 4:13

well, that's right. Yeah, that's right. It's actually one of the things that is amazing to me, because technology, as far as, say cell phones has gotten, you know, it's almost as if there's this notion that you don't even need, like a full frame camera anymore. Right? It's, it's, if you go onto YouTube, you know, there's plenty of videos that saying that DLSR is dead, you know. And I don't think that that necessarily means that that it's all just phones, but that the majority of it now is phones and these phones are getting if somebody is putting the technology to use or if somebody is working on the technology, they're working on it to put onto a phone they don't really, you know, I mean, there's certainly great cameras out there but that's Like, the phone is the predominant, you know, venue for for this type of technology. So I think that's one of the questions that I kind of had in talking about photography in general, because the young generation now has no concept of this notion of putting film in a camera, taking a bunch of pictures, like if it's a point and shoot, most people had, then when they put the film into the photo mat, and then a week later come back. And look, they have no idea of what they shot was any good until that moment,

W.B. Fontenot: 5:31

right? Well, I think because I learned initially on film, actually, the beginning of my professional career was on film, I always liken it to if you if you graded excellence in photography, from like one to 10, right, it would take you a couple of years to kind of get to like a four or five. And then you'd really have to study, you know, the technical aspects of photography in order to get to a seven. And then you have your avid ons and your herb Ritz's. And the you know, your helmet Newton's, your guys who are kind of creative gods that can get to that nine and 10 level with digital photography, you kind of skip one through five. So you kind of started a six, right, and then you can get to a SEVEN and an EIGHT with a little bit of Photoshop knowledge. But your nine in your 10s are always going to be your nine and your 10s. You know it, I don't care if you're shooting him with a phone, if you're shooting it with the hustle blod. If you're shooting with a four by five, it doesn't matter if that nine and 10 isn't in you. And if you haven't worked through all of your crappy ideas, and all of these all of the things that that don't work, you're never going to get there. So I guess that's the whole like, well, the cream always rises to the top. Yeah, there's a lot of

Frank Hannah: 6:52

sevens now, well, I have somebody who consider themselves as an amateur photographer, and you know, I've got a DLSR. And guaranteed the pictures that are the most amazing, at least objectively, are the ones that were just like, oh, I snapped it in a second. I didn't like you had maybe some idea what you were getting. And then all of a sudden, holy shit that just came out great. And you could then try to recreate the environment. Like I took a picture of a friend up at Griffith Park at the observatory, and he was looking over towards the city. And the sun caught the back of his head and his glasses. And there was like this great sunflower as well. And it was like, yeah, and he had sunglasses on. And it's just like, kick ass photo. But you know, and I didn't. The other ones weren't bad. But that was the one that was like, you could frame that it was so nice. Like everyone loved it. But I couldn't tell you how it just happened. Right? Well,

W.B. Fontenot: 7:51

and so you couldn't reproduce it? No. And so and that's that's the key is, you know, you put something in your portfolio, and you go out to get hired. And someone really likes that shot. And they say this is what we want for our campaign. Well, if you don't know how to reproduce it 1000 times with different models, different pairs of sunglasses in different locations in the city, you know that?

Frank Hannah: 8:14

And that's and that's the problem solving thing, right guys? And you can't know it unless you've solved that problem. It's kind of you know, as a writer, it's kind of I try and tell people, like if you're writing a comedy, well, that comes with its set of, you know, genre conventions and problems. Or if you're writing a thriller, or a who done it like, or a romance or rom com whatever it is. These all have these problems that if all you do is write indie thrillers, you may not come across those problems, because they're just not a feature of your of that genre that you're working in. But something like what you're talking about, you have to know what environment requires you is required for you to be able to reproduce that. You know, Sidney Lumet, the great director used to say, I hate style that shows that was his quota, his I hate style that shows and it's funny, and then you think, Well, what does that even mean? Right? And I remember, there was a TV show that was on Fox a couple years ago, and it was called deputy, okay, since Stephen Dorff played him and he was great, but it was it was the guy like you don't this is not like the leadership material. This is the guy that just goes and does what needs to be done and wherever. Now, the show itself was fine. Okay, the thing that drove me crazy was that every shot had some sunflower in it, you know, some kind of light flared into the lens, every scene, you do that one really effective time and it means something but like every shot is the sun getting, you know, I mean, you know, and I thought like why is somebody not? I mean, this is obviously somebody's vision, but like I just couldn't see why this was such a predominant, like visual footprint of the show, right? It didn't see what they And he sent me a way that was a little bit like less is more, right. But

W.B. Fontenot: 10:04

I think that anything in repetition, if you get it down to the point where you no longer have to think about it, yeah, then you're golden. That's not to say that there is not time for experiments to. And, you know, there were times, especially with LA Weekly, because I would get thrown into kind of some weird things where it's like, oh, you have to go photograph this band. And they're playing in the basement of one of the guys apartments. And so you don't know what the place looks like, it's not ideal, right? You don't know the power situation, and you have no budget. So you know, I show up there with like, little three light pack, and you try to make of it what you can and be as creative as possible. Situations like that are really fun for me, because it's not in the studio, kind of your everyday boring thing.

Frank Hannah: 10:55

So what you're really saying is you have to problem solve. Now also be creative.

W.B. Fontenot: 11:00

100%. And, you know, the last couple years, I was shooting for the shoe company ASICs. And when I was in school, I hated product photography, it was not my thing. I, I really liked working with people, I felt like there was an interaction there, that was exciting. But when you have a product, especially a product, like a tennis shoe, or a running shoe, and you've seen these every which way in all advertising, so to look at something like that, and say, Okay, how can I do this just a little bit differently. That is where, you know, like, the problem solving that you're talking about comes into. And one of the things that I did, one of their campaigns was, I had runners wear the shoes, and we just beat the hell out of them went through mud, just I mean, the shoes were destroyed. You know, this is what a marathon runners shoes look like, after they've run, you know, there's usually some blood on them. There. Cushions just pretty much failed at that point. And, and those runners are kind of proud of those shoes. They were like a badge of honor. So why not show that. And so I shot a big part of the campaign with the shoes just beat up. And it was cool. So you know, and then then you also have to the beauty shots, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So you know, some of the stuff that I did was it turned into billboards for the Olympic Village for the Olympics. And that was pretty cool. Seeing that. And that's just, I mean, then you're just a technician, you know, you have 50 people telling you what they want, and you kind of just hone down into exactly as specific as possible. Yeah, with little lighting kicks off of the shoe laces or, you know,

Frank Hannah: 12:47

yeah, I think I remember you telling me a story. A story that you worked with Terry Richardson at some point.

W.B. Fontenot: 12:55

Oh, I know. I know what you're talking about. It wasn't Terry Richardson. It was David la Chapelle.

Frank Hannah: 12:59

Okay, so yeah, well, that's even more kind of exciting. So this idea that he's got his guys are just people that know how to set up everything exactly the way he wants it. And then he just shows up and works with the talent and does that.

W.B. Fontenot: 13:13

Yeah, and I mean, you know, I think it that's an that's a very interesting time. In my life, I was photo assisting. And I was just kind of, I was new to the professional photo scene. And to see, this photographer in La chapelle was one of those guys that, you know, I saw his stuff in Rolling Stone. And it really made me want to be a photographer. And then to show up, and to see his process where he's much more of an art director. And, you know, good on him. He knew exactly what he wanted. But yeah, everything was done prior to him getting there. And, you know, I look back at it now. And I say, Well, I'm sure he had conversations with his assistants on, you know, what type of lighting

Frank Hannah: 13:59

like where they map until the day and then it's like, he's somebody making sure that's taken care of. And

W.B. Fontenot: 14:05

yeah, but you know, he didn't have to show up until four in the afternoon, right? And talent got there at five 30. And when we were ready to go, and I think there were, that was like, there was four or five different sets. And each one we had Polaroid ID with three different lighting examples. And so he would just come in and say, I like this, I like this, I'd like this, and I'd like this. And then we would revert all of them to whatever lighting that what.

Frank Hannah: 14:32

That's That's crazy. You just sometimes you just never know what it really does take a lot of people to to make somebody look great.

W.B. Fontenot: 14:40

Oh, yeah. Well, and I think that a lot of times in this industry. People don't understand what goes behind still images and it's, it is a lot more akin to motion than I think people give it credit for. The crews are pretty big, especially when you get into things that are like La chapelle large where you have a lot of moving parts,

Frank Hannah: 15:02

it's not just a portrait, it's like an entire set of

W.B. Fontenot: 15:06

things happen. And there's usually a lot of stuff going on in that image. And, you know, I tried to kind of have similar vibe to that in some of it, especially some of my kind of earlier stuff, where it looked like mass chaos. But it was a very controlled chaos. Right? And, and I knew exactly what all of the lights were doing, and I knew where people needed to be.

Frank Hannah: 15:29

So let me ask you a question like, so on a on a type of shot like that. It's kind of in that la Chapelle kind of chaotic? Yeah. You have this giant group of people that all seem to be living in their own story in their own world. Right. Right. All of them are pretty much tack sharp, what do they call that? Like?

W.B. Fontenot: 15:47

hyperfocal? Distance? Yeah, yeah. hyperfocal is, yeah, it's a real thing.

Frank Hannah: 15:52

You sometimes see focus stacking where you like, you'd have different things at different places. And then you're, you're processing the image so that everybody's in, it's kind of like the whole like die optic lens thing that in film where right have to try and hide this shitty blurry line up the middle of the screen. But to get to people and focus that are not anywhere near

W.B. Fontenot: 16:13

right there on different planes. Yeah, yeah, um, you know, I've done it both ways. There's some of the stuff that I've shot, I'm just far back enough, I'm using a wider lens, usually, you know, you're shooting at a pretty high aperture. And when you can do that, and you know, where you're focusing, because wherever your foot you focus, you're getting a third and front two thirds behind is your that's your depth of field. So if you, you know, kind of just do the math.

Frank Hannah: 16:41

And that's really do you think that's also kind of where a flash photography really shines? Because you can't really have that kind of a high aperture shot with bright studio lights going, like you need something that's going to be

W.B. Fontenot: 16:55

you need to pump into, right, right? Yeah, it needs to be pretty considerable, in some instances. And, you know, for any, like, large group shots for, you know, LA Weekly, or even for Playboy. I did a few for playboy.com. That, well, I mean, they were all on different planes. And yeah, I had to crank light into him. And for things like that, we would use these lights called by tube, which is, you'd have two stroke heads in one light, holy shit. Yeah. So you could get, you know, 220 400 watt second packs on it. So essentially, it's a 4800 watt, second light. And that that was crazy.

Frank Hannah: 17:38

That's where the Voodoo of it all comes to me because I love available light in cameras, like, where if I'm shooting something, before phones, you know, I had a lot of family members that would take pictures, and they'd all put the auto flash on their cameras, and I would I walk around going turn off this right off this flash turn of this flash, and then they would use available light, and it would be like, Oh, wow, this picture is so much better. And I'm like, Yeah, cuz you're not blowing out the entire thing, you know. So that's kind of changed a little bit where you can adjust the flash on a phone, right? It's just

W.B. Fontenot: 18:13

gonna do what it's like.

Frank Hannah: 18:15

It's really way more than just pointing and shooting. I mean, there's just so many things like and one of the things as a photographer, I'm sure you've seen this is, there are times when you'll meet somebody, really, that you're supposed to photograph. And you'll think this person is like not, they're not attractive, in a conventional way, or they don't look attractive, and you're thinking of the camera can only do so much, right? However, when you take a picture of them, it somehow transforms them into something else. And I'm not talking about with like fancy lighting and makeup and all that. But they're photogenic, you take their picture, and then all of a sudden, this other person, I've seen that happen, and it just blows my mind. I can. And not everyone's like that, right? Because then there are other people that, you know, they're, they're beautiful, but then the camera takes a picture of them. And instead of enhancing their beauty, it kind of makes them seem plastic. Right? Like almost too much.

W.B. Fontenot: 19:17

Yeah, no, I understand exactly what you're saying. And yeah, there are certain people I have photographed and it's like, Man, this dude has a great mug, like it just comes across. And you know, like, that goes back to of course, you know, you also have to know what light is going to benefit you in those in those scenarios. Yeah, I you know, back to really quick, the strobe verse just natural light. I love natural light as well. And it's very well it's a hell of a lot easier, but it's also something that I find is a little bit softer at times that I like to use. You know, when you're not shooting And, you know, it's not noon, or something like that strobe lighting was one of those things that hooked me on photography. And I was going to the Art Institute to Seattle, we went outside with a little portable strobe. And, you know, it was it was filmed. So we took Polaroid with a hostile blog, and the sky was this kind of muddy blue. And then he was like, Okay, now we're going to change the aperture and we're going to hit him with light, and we're going to expose for the light that we're hitting them for. So in essence, because the strobes not affecting the sky, you're stopping down on the sky, so it's gonna darken it. So you shot it and handed the Polaroid around. And the sky was this deep, dark, just gorgeous blue. And right then, yeah, it was that magic, right. And it was it was that, God I can, I can manipulate the hell out of these images. And if, if I can do that, then I can create my own world. And that's where, when you find you, you know, you have your, essentially your three basic tools. So you have your ISO, your aperture, and your shutter speed. And with those things, you can kind of change. And do you know, and then on top of that, of course, back then you had your different film types. So not just black and white, but your vivid color, or, you know, your natural color. And then you could push process things.

Frank Hannah: 21:30

Now we have the vibrance and the Saturation Slider.

W.B. Fontenot: 21:34

Right? Well, and we also have all of the all the filters, right? You know, and I think when you start off in photography, especially, and I you know, I think I think people do this in painting and other things, too, is they tend to lean pretty hard on your filters or your your little things that like will flip out an image to make it look cool. Like you would cross process it back in a day. And maybe that's because you don't quite know technically how to get what you're looking for. So you're just going to change the color and make it like creative and fun and weird. And that's not to say that those things can't be used really well. Right. Right. Like, there's the Beastie Boys, video. That's like all fisheye lens. Frickin amazing. But there are a lot of people, especially in photo school that use fisheye lenses and think it's the end all be all. And it's because they don't have an original idea for the project. Right. So they use it to kind of skew the thing. So they can just fall on that. So now the fish islands is their idea. And it's not adding to it. It just is the creativity.

Frank Hannah: 22:45

Right? Yeah, that's interesting, too. I think there's times where you have like a wide angle lens. And you're trying to get that distortion off the side. You don't I mean, it's like, it's the opposite. You don't want it to be fisheye, you're like, I want to get as much in this size I can. But now I'm getting all of this distortion on the side. Like if I've taken pictures that were fine, right? They weren't great. But then I take them into like the Camera Raw in Photoshop, and you start adjusting things, you start adjusting, you know, the temperature, everything. And then you turn it into something amazing. Yeah. And that's great, because that's what that software can do. But it's not talent. No, it's It's fine. But I realized it's like I just kind of polished a turd in a way right? Like, in the pictures look great. But I had to work to try and find a way to enhance them enough to they look great. They weren't really great photos, per se. Right? It

W.B. Fontenot: 23:44

wasn't it wasn't killer out of the out of the camera.

Frank Hannah: 23:47

Well, no. And if we're talking about like composition, all right, well, that's another discussion. Right. But I think that what it kind of leads into is that, you know, like you say, people can get up to a seven now. Yeah, and that's one of the great things about the time we live in is that, but technology is such that if somebody says, you know, say, Well, why don't you make a movie? Or you know, why don't you film something? Or make a little short films? I mean, no, because it used to be I can't do that because I need like a Super Eight camera. And then I need to record the audio, right? And then I need to get the film and then the light and it just was not cost effective. To do that. I

W.B. Fontenot: 24:26

mean, you're sure it's gonna cost you 10 grand,

Frank Hannah: 24:28

right? And now you can do like you could do so much stuff. Just because technology has never been easier to be able to to explore, you know, the creative part of you, Visa v you know film and, and music. I mean, you name it. It's it has kind of created a whole sub culture of mediocrity that yet somehow gets, you know, trumpeted as something more than it is right. But as somebody who says, Hey, everyone's creative. I feel Like, hey, good for you, you know, I mean, I think

W.B. Fontenot: 25:02

that yeah, and you know, and I view things like, you know, Camera Raw, and all of these, these are all just tools in your tool belt. I mean, it's like I was saying with, you know, you used to have different kinds of film, right? Well, now you have programs that can do those, all those films. And that's, you know, I don't want to crap on any of that. I think that, you know, if you if you have new tools, use them. Now, that being said, you know, I have seen, like, people who want to shoot film a lot more now, you know, partially for the nostalgia, but then they also, they think it's cool. Yeah. And I think you know, for personal use, it makes a ton of sense. Sure. Explorer film, it is fun. And there is a magic to it. I mean, I remember the first time I made my black at first black and white print, and I saw the image come to the surface and the chemistry, I was sold commercially, it doesn't make a ton of sense. Because everything ends up digital anyway.

Frank Hannah: 25:59

Right? I mean, I think if you're doing, you know, kind of art exhibits, and you're, you know, it's something that yeah,

W.B. Fontenot: 26:05

if it never sees a computer, Hell, yes, I am all for it. But as soon as you know, scan it, or take an image of it, and then you manipulate it in the computer. Night. Oh, I don't know why you shot it on film doesn't make any sense to me.

Frank Hannah: 26:21

So when you first started, you were at the Art Institute of Seattle on that. Do you study photography? Yes. So at that point, you know, you're photographing anything and everything, right? You're trying to just find out what it is.

W.B. Fontenot: 26:33

Yeah, I'm just playing. And then you know, and then I went to a small school in Spokane, Washington. And then from there, I got accepted into Brooks Institute of Photography, which was in Santa Barbara. And I did not plan on staying at Brooks. I wanted to use their name to get an internship somewhere in LA now was that was kind of always the plan I would so I was at Brookes for about a quarter, and just started writing emails to people continuously. And one of the places I wrote was playboy. And, and I wrote Playboy and I also would call these studios, so he's just cold calling constantly. You cold called playboy. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so were they just one of the people that called that called you back, and they were the only people, the only people that were the only people that call me back. This studio managers guy named Billy did just the nicest guy in the world. And he, I, I think I beat him down. And because I was leaving messages, when I was in high school, there was an issue of Playboy with Pamela Anderson. And she she was photographed in this, this kind of like beat up old hotel. That was that was the photo spread. And it has its some of its pretty cheesy, it's her with like a saxophone and her on top of the hood of this car. And I remember seeing that in high school and just thinking this is it like this. The imagery is so beautiful. And most of that was natural light. That is one of the things that really edged me toward playboy. Interesting was was it that and you know, if you go up in my room right now that that issue is signed by Pam, and it's hanging on my wall,

Frank Hannah: 28:14

yeah. It's kind of topical in a way because that show Pam and Tommy that was on Hulu. Yeah, it was an amazing show. I thought it was fantastic. Yeah. And of the two things about it that were the most kind of revealing. One, I didn't realize Tom Lee was like that much of a dick. Like I just I did not really. I mean, I guess I knew that he, you know, listen to your star for that long ride, you know, whatever. I just, I wasn't aware that he was that abrasive. The other side of it was, well, I didn't care what happened to him, because I felt like, oh, he'll be fine. She's the one you feel like empathy towards because, you know, she's just a small town girl that made it big. And for all of her, whatever her faults were, you know, her talent as an actress that she was trying to break out. I mean, this is the last thing you need. And yeah,

W.B. Fontenot: 29:05

and well, and also, I'll just say this, I mean, the a couple times, I met Pam, she was just one of the loveliest people. That's what everyone

Frank Hannah: 29:11

should be. Sweet. And so you kind of feel like, you feel like she's the one that's kind of getting punished for it. Yeah. And she did these photo shoots for Playboy. And you know, and pretty much her career was built around the fact that she was this gorgeous woman. I thought she was more appealing to me as the girl next door than just the vavoom kind of girl. Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, there's no denying the fact that she was the most beautiful girl in the world. And every guy was like gaga for Anderson, but because she did that and then these legal troubles came up. Now it's like she doesn't have a voice at all right? Like now just because you showed your body like no one. No one cares what you have to say like you don't have any rights. You've you've already. You've shown us that Good, just there's there's nothing left for you to to, you know, complain that you have no privacy anymore. And it reminded me of this girl I met in LA many years ago who had been a perfect 10 model. Okay. And she had done a small photo spread for them, which, you know, she never said, Oh, here's where you can find my perfect 10 Yeah, but you do a little web search and you find it, I'm like, wow, the photos were fine. I mean, she was much more beautiful in person than she was. In the photo she was, it was fine. But it wasn't like if you met her, she was like a stunner. She was like, you would just go, right? There was a charisma there. So much that you, you know, I would go to lunch with her, and we would hang out. And it was like, you'd walk into a place. And we weren't together. I was just good friends with her, you know, I, I wanted to. But and she was very sweet. And we'd walk in, and it was the funniest thing ever. Because every single guy walking in looks at her and was you could just see them going Holy shit. And then they look at me, and they're like, What is she doing with this fucking loser? And I didn't look at it like, Oh, poor me. I'm looking at it. Like, I just love this, because I'm not with her. But you know, there's a perception, there's a perception. But anyway, subsequently, I mean, she would try and get jobs. And it was tough for her because she said, you know, people would do one Google search, and they see, and I thought, oh, man, that really sucked, because she was quite a bright, intelligent person that had way more to offer than her good looks. But it's really hard to look past that whenever you can't even speak when you see her because she's just so good looking. And what I was thinking about prior to this interview was this idea that nowadays, it's different, where it's as though because there's now there's like, only fans, where people are attaching this to their Instagram, and they're in there. They're having sex with people, and they're charging, like a subscription for folks. And they don't think about it like, well, I'm going to fuck people on camera, and charge people a subscription, and then look at it like, well, this is going to ruin my life for doing it. They look at it, like, No, this is who I am. And so there's this, the inhibitions are gone. But the sensitivity is way up, right? So it's like, they're showing all of these things. But they're also very sensitive to what anyone would say about it, which I think has something to do with the the generation we're in where before it was people would go, Oh, if I do this, it'll just destroy my career, like, damaged goods, if I do it. Now. It's just not the case. Which I find that really fascinating, where people are really okay with having, you know, it used to be I don't know about you, but it used to be certainly from my perspective was the number one thing that you should never, ever, ever, ever do film yourself, having sex like that. That's like on the master plan. And never ever ever film yourself having sex. And now,

W.B. Fontenot: 32:59

yeah, yeah, no, it seems to be pretty normalized at this point. Yeah.

Frank Hannah: 33:03

So you know, and I'm not judging that at all. It's just, it's just an interesting observation that nowadays, it's not the same people. I've I know, some people that have only fans accounts, and I'll say, Aren't you worried that? You know, and they don't even have it in their head that that it may be a problem? Well, maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But yes, it's interesting that I mean,

W.B. Fontenot: 33:25

hopefully, hopefully, it won't. Yeah, I, you know, I would love to live in a society where sexualization of oneself or just sex in general is not deemed kind of a bad thing, right? I mean, definitely, we have a lot of bumps to get over when it comes to that. But, um, one thing that I do need to say about Pam and Tommy thing per photoshoot was that was not at all real. Like how that happened really, kind of drove me insane. Oh, I'm sure I didn't seem very, it was very, it was very different than how, oh, the shoots were at playboy.

Frank Hannah: 34:04

And that's something I, I kind of wanted to talk about, too, because, and even the stuff you've done for exhibits, like you're dealing with models, who are getting nude on some level at some level of undress.

W.B. Fontenot: 34:16

Um, well, I mean, first of all, you're working with professionals. So and even if you're not, like, even if I'm shooting someone who's, you know, more of an amateur model, it's never just me and them. I mean, that's very rare. You know, sometimes like, I would go somewhere and shoot something for a friend of mine who needed an album cover or whatever. But you know, when you're dealing with, especially a publication like Playboy, you have a stylist, a stylist assistant, you have you know, photography assistants usually had like two then you have your makeup artist. Sometimes the producer would fly in because you know, what I shot for was playboy.com. And what they called the special editions, which was like, I don't know if you remember that. We're all pictures. So it's easy. I'd like to book lingerie or book nudes, whatever,

Frank Hannah: 35:04

none of those really amazing articles. Yeah,

W.B. Fontenot: 35:06

none of those amazing articles. They? Yes. So there is nothing sexy about the actual shoot,

Frank Hannah: 35:14

you pull back the curtain and yes, nothing there. Because you imagine a way because here's the thing, and maybe it's a credit to the pictures themselves. Because, you know, I see some of the, I remember some of the pictures you had and one of your shows. And it's, it's obviously very sensual, there's a sexual element to it, there's like a sexual vibe to it. It's not gratuitous, or, or even really explicit, but it's there. So you just automatically assume that like, this is a vulnerable moment, how did you get to this?

W.B. Fontenot: 35:44

Where? Well, I think that some of some of that just has to do with how you connect with the person. And that intimacy can be taken as sexuality, or, you know, and the other thing is, is, you know, certain models can just turn it on. And, you know, they, it's, you're just having a conversation, and then the guy just flipped that switch, there was a story about Marilyn Monroe, was a photographer reporter was on the subway with her, and they were New York, and they were riding on the subway, and no one was paying any attention to, you know, the guy was like, Well, how do they not know that she was oh, I'm not Maryland. He's like, What do you mean, she's like, what? And then she kind of turned into her perversion of Marilyn Monroe. And suddenly, everyone's heads turned. Right. And, you know, certain models that I've worked with, are fully capable of doing that, where it's just time to turn it on. And I think, you know, in a way, it's just like being an actor or an actor. That's that professionalism, isn't it? Yeah, where you can just flip it on. So and, and it's really cool to see,

Frank Hannah: 36:48

when I was in Reno, and we were making the cooler. You know, it was the first time I had spent an entire time on set while a film was being made. And, and seeing real professional actors working, and they all have their own different style of doing things. And so there's really no one way to skin a cat, so to speak. You know, there's like some actors, before they're seen, they're just off mumbling to themselves, you know, repeating the line and doing whatever. And then there's other ones that are brooding that you just don't go near, because you could tell. And then there's the the method actors that are like getting themselves all like, amped up to do whatever it is that's in the scene. And, you know, Bill Macy was one of these guys, that I was so in awe, because they were all good. I mean, don't get me wrong, but this bill was amazing. Because what he would do be in a scene, and it would be quite emotional, and he would have to be in quite a state to film it. And so you see him do that. And then you're like, oh, wow, that's like, really, really cool. And then they'll say, Cut. You know what, we could change these lights? Are we need to turn around, we need to do whatever we need to do. Give us five minutes, Bill? Well, yeah. And he's like, okay, and he just comes right over. And then he's like, Hey, Frankie, what's going on? And I'm like, aren't you still in this emotional kind of spot? And he's like, No, I'm good. And so then, like, they go, and he goes, and he's just turned it right back on. And I just was like, holy shit.

W.B. Fontenot: 38:22

That's what it see. That's something I'm not capable of. I'm not capable. No. And that's why I'm on the other side of the camera.

Frank Hannah: 38:29

Yeah, but it isn't, you know, it's like, you definitely can feel the the intensity of it, and the fact that it feels real, even though, you know, and arguably, it is right, whenever they do that, they can go back and forth, and back and forth. Whereas there's other people were there, they just approach it differently. Yeah. And I think the having the access to that, like turning it on and off. There was a great story I heard, I was talking to a writer for Entertainment Weekly, a few years ago, I just struck up a conversation with him. And he was telling me that he had just gotten back from New Mexico where they were filming Breaking Bad. That was like the second season of Breaking Bad. And by complete chance, I don't know if you if you are a fan of that show, right now. Okay. So then you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. My favorite scene of that entire series is in season two, and it's where Walter White goes to Jesse Pinkman his house because he's dating that woman, that girl who is trying to kind of get him out of the you know, and she's a heroin addict, right? And so he goes, and he stinks into the house. And he's trying to figure out what to do. And then she ODS. And he's standing there and he realizes if I turn her over, she'll want to fix the eight herself. And he's standing there and of course, he's realizing if I do nothing, she'll die. But it also solves my problem. So you see him and he's all emotional because even He does it. It's, it's killing him. You know, he just realized he's he's crossing this huge emotional line like of his character. Right. So, so that I love that scene, right? It just, it's so amazing. So anyway, that guy, that writer for Entertainment Weekly. He was there while they were shooting that because he was doing a story on Breaking Bad. Wow. So they he was just kind of standing back happened to be watching that scene, of course I'm like, that's my favorite scene. So tell me tell me tell me. So he starts telling me that they shot it like a bunch of different ways, okay, with different versions of what Walter White does like one where he saves or one where, you know, he turns over one and different things. I can't remember all the different variations, but they shot at a number of times. And every single time they would say action, then Bryan Cranston is like emotionally just there, and then cut. And then they do it again. And he's there again. And so he back and forth in that really intense emotional state. He just turns it on and off like a faucet. Yeah. And that to me is like, holy shit, what kind of alien Are you that you can do that? So this is a funny story. I mean, of course, I'm telling it. Like, it's my story. It's not it's this guy's story. Okay, so good. He said, they were going to change something that we're going to move the camera around or whatever. And so they took a break. And so then Bryan Cranston sat down on the bed, you know, the bed that Jessie and the girl were on. And they got up to do whatever. So he sat down, and he saw that the Entertainment Weekly guy was there sending the background, and he knew he was there to interview him or whatever. So he looks at him. And he just like packs, the bed next was like, Hey, come on, sit down. So is that so their CEO of progress is all just, you know, happy, smiley, jokey kind of guy. And he sits down and he's like, yeah, he's like, that was amazing. And he's like, yeah, hey, I want to shoot up. Gear, everything's okay. And that's crazy that like this is the people have that ability. Right. And I think that's like, that's a muscle that I suppose you have to flex a ton of time talking about, like, you know, the 10,000 hours. But yeah, so I don't know how, without a bit of a tangent, but I do, it's just, I love stories like that, because it's great when somebody is able to have access to some part of their creative self that is way more than what your average person would achieve in their life. But you know, really, the safe people, for people to say that they're not creative. It's just ridiculous, right? But I mean, not all of us could ever get to that point where we're able to access that. But, you know,

W.B. Fontenot: 42:51

well, but I think that comes to kind of, you know, something that we were talking about, while you were setting up for this, which is, you know, working past the first idea, right, and taking that and kind of changing it and, and really just honing your craft, right? You know, like a lot of models that I worked with that I was, you know, saying were able to just kind of turn it on. I'm sure they spent hours in front of a mirror. And they've also had tons of photoshoots. And so they know what lighting looks good on them. Right? And they know how to position their head or their body to get, you know, the best results for them. And that that that they want to show. And you know, it's the same thing with, you know, people like Cranston a little Cranston's amazing. I mean, he's next level.

Frank Hannah: 43:41

I think so I mean, there's other people that are like I said, I watched Bill do it and, and I've seen other actors where they're able to get to the emotional place, but then it's hard to put it back in the box. Like I, I think that would be me. I think if I got myself to some emotional wreck type state, for a scene, if I was if I was an actor, which I'm not, then it would be I'd have to take a week or two. And shove it with the rest of my feelings. Zero. Yeah, but yeah, so working with Playboy, I think that must have been a great learning experience for you as well, because

W.B. Fontenot: 44:16

like you're Oh, Mao was fresh out of school. Yeah, I had never been on a professional photoset ever. And, you know, I was I was still living in Santa Barbara. So I was actually commuting to Santa Monica, which was insane, right? I'm not getting paid, because it was an unpaid internship. I did that for three months. I was there for two weeks. Just doing random stuff around the studio until I was allowed on set. You know, they kind of want to make sure you're not like just a super creepy weird. And I mean, it's true. You gotta you know,

Frank Hannah: 44:54

yeah, you gotta pass Yeah, to pass these tests. Yeah. So

W.B. Fontenot: 44:57

when I finally got on set, just the money amount of lights those guys use was, I mean, it was pretty absurd. But yeah, it was, it was cool because it really, I think at the end of the day was the best photo school I could have ever gone to, you know, we had so many different lighting challenges that you have to deal with, you know, suddenly you're photographing some flight attendant, so you're on a private plane. So now you have to learn how to light a private plane, or you're shooting the dimension tonight, you have to learn how to like this huge ass building. And it's just constantly new problems. So we'd be downtown, we'd have to like blackout an alleyway, right, you know, now we're shooting a Ferrari, and they want the, you know, everything wet. And so, you know, after getting all of that down, it's, you know, now it can go into pretty much any scenario and go, Okay, well, I've dealt with a variation of this, right, so we can take it and I know where to put the glare off the sunglasses essentially,

Frank Hannah: 45:59

did you find that once you had done that work for Playboy, that that people looked at you as a photographer of a certain stripe? Or did was that like an issue? Like they are thinking, Oh, he's a playboy photographer. So that means he's

W.B. Fontenot: 46:12

certain people definitely do. It depends. If I talked to people who are like DPS, or for motion, for the most part, they're like, Oh, damn, well, you know, light. Right? I mean, that's, that's the that's, that's kind of the reaction I get from them. People who don't know photography very well, I don't understand the kind of masterclass that Playboy was, right. So they see it as more like, oh, you take naked pictures? And they sometimes Yeah, but in you know, when they can't separate the two, yeah. And the thing is, is nudity for me is not, doesn't bother me, male, female, I don't care. And, you know, I went, I studied abroad for a little bit in Florence. And, and I live, I lived in Italy, and nudity over there is just no thing. You know, we had a billboard, outside of our, our little apartment, it was just a naked woman on a piece of bread, and it was for an ad for butter. And, you know, they, because you walk down the street, and it's just statues and naked people. And so the, you know, there's this Puritan aspect of things here. And, I mean, fact of the matter is, I've done a hell of a lot more than just playboy. So I know at this point in my career, I think you can kind of tell going into something like if these people are going to be if this client is going to be receptive to that, or if I bring it up. Unfortunately, you know, you Google me, it's going to come up. But yeah, I think a lot of time executive producers, or people that have been in the industry for a while. They respect it, because they know,

Frank Hannah: 47:49

like, say you're like doing pictures for screw magazine. Yeah, no, no boy is the cream of the crop in terms of the quality of the pictures. I mean, some people would say that are really looking for like overly sexed kind of smart. They would say they would avoid Playboy, because that's not what that is.

W.B. Fontenot: 48:07

No, and, you know, I mean, honestly, if you look at it now, half the crap we shot in Playboy, is on Instagram, right? You know, it's, you know, it's barely covered people on Instagram. And like you were saying, I think there's a normalization of it, which I'm all for. I mean, I think, I think shunning the human body is kind of a weird thing. In general, I

Frank Hannah: 48:30

think there's an interesting movement going on, and I can't really put my finger on on on the whys and wherefores of it. But, you know, I started watching the HBO show euphoria, the amount of male full frontal nudity that is in that show. Yeah. Is shocking, right? Not Not in a bad way per se, but it's just that you're just not. This is like, it used to be this line, like you could show female nudity. And you could show a guy's ass on camera, but let's keep it at that. And here there is just a complete lack of giving a shit yeah, and there's something both refreshing about her and a little odd because you're not you're kind of used to it if you if you're watching the show, and I think that there's been other shows like there was a show on HBO called the deuce which started to kind of go down that road a bit more and was a little bit more even handed about the nudity. And I think ultimately is a good thing because like who cares right but it is one of those things where like you say we are a puritanical country, right? And I

W.B. Fontenot: 49:32

you know, in this thing, too, is I'm not also like it can be, you know, exploitive, right. And so, there are definite things that you want to use common sense when it comes to your judgment on it. But yeah, I you know, I that was a fantastic way to spend my, you know, mid 20s through my mid 30s was was with kind of the Playboy family. And then you know, from there, I had I burned out a little one photography and ended up going into painting. And I did that for a while, really enjoy that. And then, you know, now I'm kind of trying my hand at writing. And, you know, when I was when I was younger, there was this a little bit of a stigma on the jack of all trades, master of none thing. And I you know, as you get older, you just kind of realize, I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I want to do. Oh, yeah, you know, my, my wife has always said, I'm not a photographer. She's always said, I'm just an artist that happened to pick up a camera, because that solved the problems that I, I had and told the stories I wanted to tell through that medium. And then it was painting because I wanted to use texture and something that was a little more three dimensional. And so then I figured out, I'm not Dali, you know, I can't paint like that. But I what I wanted to create, I got to the level that I was able to do that. And then with writing, it was kind of the same way, although this was very much a happy accident. And this was really building on what I consider a really crappy idea, right? One of my buddies is His name is Tracy Morris. He's a writer. And he does, he does some some films and TV and some other things. And you know, we're, we go on, we have a drink every once in a while. And he we met up in 2018. And he said, You know, when you lived back the lofts, we, we were out drinking one night, we had like a crazy night. And you told me about this weird dream, you had this bridge. And this battle on this bridge. I had no idea what the hell he was talking about. I was like, what? And so he started describing it to me. And so you know, I thought about it for like a couple of days. And I came back home. I was like, I do remember that. And I remember it. But it is a horrible idea for anything. And, you know, it was it was essentially, these people who were secluded, it was this post apocalyptic thing. It was so Tropi. And he said, Well, he's pitching this idea to Netflix for this animated series. And he said he wants to like base it somehow around, you know, this idea of this bridge and this battle on it. They said, Okay, well let me throw some things together. And you know, I had helped him write a couple of little shorts and done some other things. And it's always just been fun. And I started going on these long walks. And I would just think about this, and it became this massive thing. So I, you know, kind of very typical me, I went very overboard. And I wrote about 300 pages, oh, this shit. No, it was a Bible for this world. And I got down to the economy. And you know, I broke down the Botany of the planet, you know, all the different wildlife and, and all the different characters. And I broke down what each of these episodes would be. And I did it for like, three seasons 10 Episodes Season and are in so you know, I brought it to him. We went out and we met for lunch. I plopped this thing down. And I was just like, What the hell? This is not at all what and I'm not a screenwriter, I had no idea. You know, he just wanted a treatment. He's like, Okay, well, let me take it home. So he takes it home. And we meet up, like three days later. And he said, Yeah, you you can't do this as an animated series, because they'll They'll ruin it. Essentially, he was like, You need to write this as a novel. So you have IP, you need to you need intellectual property. Oh, yeah. And so he's like, just write it as a novel. I was like, never written anything. He's like, just do it, you'll be fine. This guy has so much faith in me, which was just baffling. And so I, I sat down, I started writing. And I think I realized somewhere in that process, and it's like, wow, because I'd never written before, right? But it's like, oh, shit, I just because I write something doesn't mean it's in stone. And so I took it with goods, kind of like the same way I started painting, where it's like, oh, you're just gonna layer it. So I'm gonna put my blue down, which is just essentially my outline. And then I'm just going to work on it until you know, and then I'll go in and detail it when I'm done. Yeah, I wrote the first two novels, through an edit kind of realized they were too dense. And so I cut those in half. So you know, I have my first four. Oh, yeah, I just caught the copyright on the first one back from the Library of Congress. It's really cool. So they're out with beta readers right now.

Frank Hannah: 54:39

That's, well, congratulations. I mean, I love hearing those kinds of stories. Because the truth is, most of the time, you know, people will say, Oh, you know what, I? I always wanted to be a writer. I just don't have the time. As if somehow it's just time. All you need is just time right and that there isn't a process of putting your thoughts to Gather that in such a way. And even if they did want to do it, they never do it. And so anytime anybody finishes something, especially a novel, or even a script is amazing. Whether it's good or not, doesn't matter, insofar as that you've gone through that process. Yeah, like I used to tell people to do and I used to do the, the NaNoWriMo. Have you? Are you familiar with the NaNoWriMo? No, okay, you, you'll probably like this. Alright. It's, it's November, it's the National Novel Writing Month, right? And what it is, is you agree to write a 50,000 word story novel in the month of November, okay. And so you every day you go and write and then you go on to the website, and then you update your, your word count, right? You have to upload the entire thing. But you know, and so you're on your honor to say whether you write if you're hitting it, and so I tell people to do this. And they're like, Well, what do you get it at the end? And I'm like, Oh, you get, you get an amazing price. And they're like, Well, what, what you have a novel, you have a novel, you have a draft. Yeah. And I would try to tell people that it's really not about perfection, it's about that you, you will realize how creative you are. Because if I said you have to write 2500 words a day, and you go, Well, I don't know what I'm going to write, it's pretty soon after you continue to write the word, the words, I don't have an idea, I don't have an idea, This really sucks. This really sucks, I am hungry, I want to go eat. So eventually, you're going to get past all of that chatter. And then you're going to get to the other stuff that's kicking around in the back of your head, that you may never get to. If you're not forced to sit down and just get the garbage out of the front of your brain, you can get the other stuff. And when people have done it, and anybody that has gone through the process of writing something like a novel, like they know what that is, they know that once you just start going, some of it just comes out that you have no idea where it came, though it completely takes over right? And you have no sense of like, how did I come to that? Like, how did that work out, because it proves to you that the part of your unconscious that is thinking about these things, is putting the connections together, even though consciously, you aren't so bad at times, you'll go back and read something, and then you'll say I need a solution to this. And you'll realize that you had put it there all along. But you just didn't understand that it was like part of your subconscious was working it out. And so I love that type of stuff. Kudos to you for actually going through that process. Because most people they don't. And even if you did write one manuscript, it's enough to look at it and go, Oh, my God, what am I gonna do with that? Right? But it's, it's just a great way to express yourself. And that's how I look at it in terms of it is kind of forcing someone to go on a larger scale past the first 100 Shitty ideas, yes. And to see what else is there?

W.B. Fontenot: 57:56

Yeah, well, and I think it's also important, which has been with all my stuff. As far as how it's driven, is, I get an idea in my head. And the idea will keep tapping the back of my brain until I make it. Yeah, and, you know, so a little bit of, it's just like, it's an exorcism, and I just need to get it out, right, because we know, once it's out, then I can kind of move on to the next thing. But if you know, if I don't attend to it, it'll just kind of keep

Frank Hannah: 58:25

tapping me. I'm a huge, huge believer in all of this creative exploration. Because, you know, one of the things that you were talking about there about, you know, how that your wife says, You're not a painter, really feeds into my view of the world, which is that I used to think I needed to be just a writer, when in actual fact, it's not that it's, it's an area of creativity, right, creating things. And that you, you realize, sometimes because you're forced to that other things you do feed your soul in the same or similar way. And so that and that, what's great about it is that then you're like, oh, wait, I don't have to just do this one thing. Yeah, that might be really hard to do, right? Because it might be pie in the sky in terms of success. But there's other things you can do, or an area of creativity that you can do that, that really pays the dividends. And so I think that that's what I want to try and get people to, to understand and see. Because not everybody has a glamorous, great job, even the jobs that we think are like, Oh, I wish I could do that. Like you know, they're still work and they're still using the mind and, and solving problems, which everybody has to do. So anyway, I think this has been a fantastic conversation. I'm so glad that you were able to take the time and talk to me again, you have like a lot of insight into your process, which is what is so important because people are process people I know I am I'm like I want to know like, why did you do that how we do it again, and if that helps people out there, and that's great. So thank you very much for coming in anywhere anyone can go to find anything about you

W.B. Fontenot: 1:00:05

know, but there will be soon so yeah, all started once this thing kind of goes through its process I'll start putting it out and I just say you mean just practice your craft

Frank Hannah: 1:00:13

make sure make art Yep, do it right. Thanks everybody. You If you enjoyed this content please do me a favor and like, comment and share it or you can subscribe to this podcast by going to www dot Best Worst idea podcast.com